
Issue No 73		13 October 2000

LaborNET	Ask Neale	Tool of the Week

Interview

Righting The Wrongs

Improving the lives of Aboriginal people can't be taken out of the context of the economy, welfare and other areas says Bob McMullan, Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs.

Your new job has infamously been likened to a toilet cleaner's on the Titanic. Yet from all accounts you volunteered for the job. Why?

I volunteered for the job because I have aspired to do something like this for quite a long time. This is a place where you can make a difference to the lives of Australians who really need assistance, and to the future of the country. And one month into the job I'm reinforced in the view that it is the best decision I have ever made.

In your opinion, how is Australia travelling at the moment with regards to reconciliation?

I think the reconciliation process is in some trouble. It has got a lot of community support but it doesn't have any political leadership. I don't mean that it ought to be run by the government - I think the idea that it is more of a people's movement is good. But people need to feel that it is going somewhere and that needs a government indicating a willingness to make progress and there is no sign of that.

The sort of wedge politics that Howard has engaged in over the last few years has undermined that process, but the Olympics and things like Cathy Freeman's win and other highlights at the Games for Indigenous Australia would suggest that that might be hitting the wall. What do you think about that?

You are right. There are contradictory trends. There are positive trends and discouraging trends. - I wouldn't call them negative, but they are discouraging trends.

The positive trends are the upsurge of enthusiasm around, not just Cathy Freeman, but the tone of the Opening and Closing Ceremonies, and the public spirit that captured, and of course the Walk Across the Bridge. Not just the walk across the Bridge in Sydney which caught all the public attention, but the smaller ones that happened all around the country, in Hobart, in Canberra, in smaller cities around the country. Those are very encouraging signs that there is still a well-spring of support for reconciliation; for bringing the most disadvantaged Australians forward and recognising their rights and saying "Sorry".

But there has been a pattern under the Howard Government of using indigenous affairs for partisan advantage, particularly in collaboration with the Northern Territory Government, but also in its own right, and that is a bit discouraging. And it does detract from people's optimism that their efforts are going to be rewarded.

What do you see as the pressing issues for Aboriginal people at the moment?

The Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation put forward what they called "Four Pathways" and they seem to me to point in the right direction. Of course, they talk about addressing the disadvantage which is generally looked at - issues about housing, health, education, and employment, but also includes some law and justice questions.

Of course that is something we need to look at and give more effort to and have a more long term perspective about.

And they recently released a report about enhancing economic independence. Creating the opportunity for indigenous people to earn income, run businesses, etc., instead of being dependent on others. I think those two things are important, and there are two other areas that they have got in focus, coming up for future detailed report. They are about the issues of maintaining the process towards reconciliation and recognising and enhancing rights.

I think across those four areas you will find that is where the progress needs to be made and we need to make progress on all four.

How would you rate the ALP's performance in this area?

When we were the Government a lot of very important and positive things happened. Over the 13 years of the Government I think a lot of important progress was made. The reconciliation process was started; the Mabo legislation was passed; a number of land rights claims were acknowledged; and some very positive programs in terms of employment and health for example, were got underway.

But you never get a 100% record in anything that is run by people. Some parts of it will go wrong or you will have the right aspiration but it won't work the way you hoped, and I think we would get a good tick for effort - and that is the most important thing - that you are trying. I don't think anyone would think we got a 100% tick for achievement, but certainly we took things forward. The rate of progress between '83 and '96 was much more encouraging than between '96 and 2000. I think that is unquestioned.

Noel Pearson recently made some considered remarks about how welfare affects black communities differently from white, and in his opinion, in a very negative way. What are your thoughts about this?

I haven't spoken to Noel recently, so before I say too much I want to speak to him. To the extent that what he has done has enabled conservatives to latch onto his arguments and reinforce negative stereotypes, I think it is a pity. But I know that wasn't his intention, and I think to the extent that he was challenging all of us to say, let us find a more positive way of providing assistance - going back to what I said about the Reconciliation Council - let's see what we can do about encouraging and facilitating economic independence, rather than dependence. Then that is part of what we do need to do. So I think there are some positive elements in what Noel did but I think he runs the risk of allowing some negative forces to use his argument for very conservative purposes that he doesn't intend. We have to be careful that we take up the positive elements of what he does. That we don't feed the negatives as well.

What are those positives as you see them?

As I say, if I interpret Noel correctly - and I don't like to interpret other people until I have spoken to them - but if I interpret him correctly, he is challenging us to say: Find a more positive way. Help people for example, through agreements about land use, with which he has been involved, to set the basis for their economic independence. I think that is positive, and I think this question of getting more land use agreements; getting more of those positive elements up and running. I think that is an element that will be a key part of future policy. But I think, simply saying that in some way not giving people welfare would be beneficial, I think that can be seized upon as a very negative message because it could really do a lot of damage to a lot of individuals and communities who need and require and deserve the support they are getting.

So, it can't be used as an excuse for taking away the support for people, and that is what I fear. But if it is used to encourage positive economic independence measures around issues like land, then that can be a positive.

There is a conspicuous lack of Aboriginal voices in the higher reaches of the ALP. Do you think the ALP could be doing more to get Aboriginal spokespeople talking more about black issues on behalf of the party?

Yes I have spoken for some time - long before I had this position - about the importance, for example, getting more indigenous candidates. But it is improving. You do have significant representatives in the Northern Territory parliament. I am confident we will have Warren Mundine elected to the Senate at the next election. Significant figures like Pat Dixon from Armidale, who is coming forward as a leading player in local government on behalf of the Labor Party - and I hope that we will find a way to use her talents even better.

This is emerging and developing as a pattern and I see it and I am trying to help it happen in my own area up here in Canberra, so progress is being made, but it is too slow.

The emergence of One Nation was a sobering reminder that many Australians are susceptible to a racist message. Do you feel optimistic about our ability to change this?

Yes, I am optimistic, but you are right to say that One Nations shocked some people because we thought that those views had been superseded by more progressive views, and it forced all the people who had that view to realise that we have an obligation, not only to develop good policy and have good hearts, but to take people with us. If they feel alienated, then it is not their fault if they become attracted to more negative and divisive policies of downward envy and shifting the blame down onto the most disadvantaged. It is our fault for not sharing with them the benefits of economic success and not taking their views and concerns more readily and satisfactorily into account in our policy development.

Improving the lives of Aboriginal people can't be taken out of the context of the economy and welfare and other areas.

How closely would you be working with other Labor Ministers to solve these problems in a Labor government?

What I have been encouraged about in the month that I have had this position, is the enthusiasm with which colleagues in other areas are keen to integrate what they do with programs, either directly targeted to indigenous people, or to make sure that what they do has, as part of its pattern and purpose, the assistance of indigenous people to meet their aspirations.

So, yes, I think there is a really good basis for that cooperation. I have just come to do this interview from a meeting with Jenny Macklin about indigenous health and what we can do together. And I have discussions with other colleagues already and I am optimistic about that.

All those measurements of health, education, crime - why do you think they are all so bad?

I think the legacy of dispossession and discrimination is going to take generations to overcome and that is why we have an obligation to keep developing programs to assist in overcoming the disadvantage that is a product of that legacy.

But we shouldn't assume no progress is being made. We are making progress, it is just that it is not progress at a satisfactory rate, and we have to do better.

The Stolen Generation is obviously such a painful scar for the whole Aboriginal community. What will the ALP do abut it if they come to power?

The symbolic thing we will do is - and the Leader of the Opposition has made it clear - if Kim Beazley becomes Prime Minister he will make the apology, but there are some more substantial things that the "Bringing Them Home" report recommended, that we will take up. I will give the detail of that a bit later, because I am just working up the detail, but broadly we would like to see the determination of the entitlements and rights of the people affected, not have to go through searing court cases that will remind them and make them relive all their harsh experiences but find a more positive environment in which they can pursue their claims and the Commonwealth can test them so that we are not wasting tax payers money.

But the thing to remember in terms of the taxpayer interest in this is that the court case - the case for Cabillo and Gunner, which is the one that was just decided in the Northern Territory - cost taxpayers $12 million. Just think how much more we could have done to assist the Stolen Generation with that $12 million, rather than spending it fighting a court case tooth and nail, when all that means is that we will have more court cases.

What are your thoughts on Howard's refusal to apologise?

I think it is a tragedy. John Howard seems to have himself locked in this position where he can't apologise. I am sure initially it was trying to send a message to the constituency the Conservatives have lost to Pauline Hansen, that here was a person they could have confidence in in reflecting some of their concerns, but now I suspect it is a hook he would like to get off, but he can't find how to get off it.

How representative do you think his opinions are, even within Conservative circles?

I think the Prime Minister and others have managed to create a bit of apprehension about the implications of an apology and made it seem as if apology equals recognition that this generation is equally guilty. Neither of those things is true. And I think if we can get this Prime Minister out of the way... I think Malcolm Fraser is correct - the next Prime Minister will apologise, and will be able to do it in a context where people can be reassured that it doesn't cost them money directly or indirectly, and it doesn't say "we are guilty" any more than taking pride in the great achievements of the past makes us claim we were directly or personally responsible. We recognised that wonderful things happened in our history and we are proud about it. It doesn't mean we think we did it. We just know that it happened, and we know that there are some black spots in our history - doesn't mean when we acknowledge them and apologise for them - it doesn't mean that we say we were personally responsible - it is just that we acknowledge that they happened and that people are suffering today as a consequence and we regret that.

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Issue 73 contents

Interview: Righting The Wrongs
Improving the lives of Aboriginal people can't be taken out of the context of the economy, welfare and other areas says Bob McMullan, Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs.

Economics: At The Mercy Of Gamblers
The plunge of the Australian dollar relative to the greenback has consequences for Aussie workers according to Frank Stillwell.

History: Labour History Under Seige Again
The Friends of the Noel Butlin Archives Centre have recently been informed of proposed changes to the Noel Butlin Archives Centre (NBAC), changes that will cut staff by more than 50% and leave the Archives mothballed in the tunnel where the repository is situated.

Workplace: Fighting The Flexible Firm
We are told that hardship and exploitation at work is dying out, and the new economy offers opportunity, freedom and job satisfaction for all. Richard Sennett unveils the true nature of the flexible workplace.

Safety: Being bossed around is bad for your health
A survey of more than 3,000 Australian workers has revealed that some 54% of workers experience intimidating behaviour in their workplace. In almost 85% of cases it is employers, managers and supervisors who are identified as the culprits.

Unions: Discrimination
New to the union and the maritime industry and with only a few days casual work to live off, Stephen Rolls courageously spoke up against individual contracts during a job interview with Burnie Port Corp.

International: Serbian Workers and Their Unions Fight for Freedom
Serbian workers and their unions have been at the forefront of the struggle for democracy in Yugoslavia as they led a general strike in response to attempts by President Slobodan Milosevic to nullify the defeat he faced in the Sept. 24 election.

Satire: A few more years of civilised brutality will advantage Aborigines: Ruddock
CANBERRA, Tuesday: The Minister for Reconciliation Philip Ruddock has defended his comments to French newspaper Le Monde claiming that Aborigines were disadvantaged because they were late in coming into contact with developed civilisations.

Review: Poetry For Workers By Workers
Poems about the trials and tribulations of a waitress and what you learn in a chocolate factory are among the gems from the 925 anthology.

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