
Issue No 6		26 March 1999

Interview

Jeff Shaw - Keeping the Peace in NSW

Interview with Peter Lewis

We talk to the Carr Government's best minister about his plans and aspirations for a second term.

A week out from the state election, how do you think it's going?

It will all depend on the marginals; its a question of whether Labor can win a few seats. I think people will see that Labor has actually achieved some substantial reforms over the last few years and I think the public are too sceptical to accept as whole raft of promises from the opposition.

Industrial relations hasn't exactly been at the forefront of the campaign, but in your time in the electorate, has it been resonating with people?

In a sense the fact that its not a major issue is a vindication of the state system. It's been quietly devolving, quietly doing good things for industries, small and large business and the workforce. Our state system has kept the peace. I'd be worried if state industrial relations was on the front pages of the papers because that would mean that there was conflict and strive. The consensual underpinning of the state system has meant that its a quiet issue. There's even a quote from the shadow minister around saying the state system is working pretty well. I believe that's correct.

If you win a second term what would be the main things you'd want to achieve in industrial relations?

I'll think there'll be more significant test cases adding to the rights of workers, but allowing employers to undertake reform at the workplace. I think the spotlight will be on the interaction between casual, full-time and part-time work and an effort to improve the balance by boosting the growth of permanent part-time work, which obviously gives workers entitlements to sick leave, maternity leave and the like.

But what real impact can a state government have on what is basically a global issue --the breakdown of the notion of the permanent job?

I think we can encourage part-time work to the detriment of casual work. I think that would particularly benefit the female workforce. It's true we're buffeted by pressures of a global nature for more flexible work arrangements, but there's no reason why these more flexible work arrangements can't carry with them greater rights to things like sick leave and maternity leave. There's also the issue of greater security of employment; the part-time worker is engaged through an ongoing contract, the casual worker is employed from day to day.

The Labor Council in planning a job security test case later on this year, what would be a Carr Government's attitude to that sort of case?

Certainly the statutory framework we have and strengthened position of the independent Industrial Relations Commission in NSW, enables this sort of test case to be brought. And if the Labor Council brings it, we'll give due to consideration to the claims that are made. My inclination would be to positively support moves to more secure employment and moves away from the insecure forms of casual employment. But obviously we'd need to see the precise claims and the arguments brought by the trade union movement before finalising a position.

What about broader ideas like mobile entitlements, which already occur in the building industry with long service leave?

That should certainly be explored. We'd obviously be cautious about imposing any costs on business which made NSW less competitive than other states, but in a cautious way we can work with employers and the trade union movement to explore moves of that kind.

One of your big achievements in your first term was the limits you placed on video surveillance in the workplace. You've got a Law Reform Commission report looking into the broader issues of privacy and unions are particularly interested in the issue of electronic surveillance. Where's that up to and what can we expect from it?

The Law Reform Commission report will look at privacy considerations generally, both in the workplace and beyond it. It will take account of other technologies that may be used. It will be available in the next couple of months and obviously we can reconsider our legislation in the light of that report. But it's important to note that we're the only state that's moved to give any protections to workplaces so far; and I say that without any disrespect to the Labor governments in Queensland and Victoria -- they may well be working on such a project and they haven't been in office very long. But it is good to be leading the way in this area -- and with a reasonable degree of employer cooperation.

Are the other Labor states talking to you about bringing in IR systems that reflect the spirit of the NSW Act?

Queensland is in close touch, and they're looking very favourably at the NSW model. They've got Professor Ron McCallum working on their model and I met with the Queensland industrial relations minister recently and there's no doubt that the NSW system will be a significant influence on their thinking.

One of the things that was talked about when the NSW Act came in was the expectation that some federal workers would move to the state system. Why hasn't occurred?

I think the legal difficulties of moving out of the federal system are so great that it's a real problem that would require very significant legal resources for the trade union involved to do that. There would also be employer resistance, so you could expect a fully fought out case in the federal jurisdiction before any federal award were modified or rescinded,. There are other problems such as the relationships between NSW branches of unions and their federal office. understandable enough, the federal office would generally be resistant to the idea of breaking up the federal award structure. So, I never regarded the test of the NSW system as whether or not there would be some flood from the federal system into NSW. I think there are other more sophisticated tests of how the system's working, particularly the user satisfaction, which I believe is very high.

Whatever the outcome of the election, it looks like another hung Upper House. In terms of IR legislation how much of a difficulty has that been for you?

It was a hard battle to get the major model through and some aspects were defeated, for example the right of entry of trade union officers was diluted and the moderate provision we had for preference for trade union members in enterprise agreements was defeated. Other aspects of the legislation were modified. But at the end of the process we got a model that I think we could all live with and perhaps the employers were to some extent placated by some of the Upper House amendments. My legislative program in the second term would be essentially a fine-tuning program which I think will be broadly supported, so I believe that the Upper House, or at least a majority, would be persuaded to undertake an evolutionary approach to the 1996 Act.

Would you consider bowling up any parts of the Act that got knocked off in 1996 if there were a change in the composition of the Upper House?

If I were persuaded that there was a reasonable chance of getting a measure through, I would do it. Certainly in terms of access by trade union officers to wages records, there's room for improvement in the legislation there and room to revise the Upper House amendments. There may be other areas as well where it's worth reconsidering parts of the NSW legislation. But it's dependent on the political realities of the upper House and, frankly, we're not going to know that for quite some weeks.

Unions are trying to formulate a new conception, not of preference, but of encouraging union membership in the workplace, would that be something you'd be happy to look at?

Yes. Provisions facilitating union membership in enterprise agreements is an item worth considering.

On a broader level, what would you like to see being the themes and directions of a second Carr Labor Government?

I think a stronger focus on social justice, on equality and on the free society. I think it's now a government which is more experienced and more self-confident and less likely to be buffeted by day to day media pressures. I think the pressures for extreme caution are probably less in a second term, particularly if we have a solid win.

So you're optimistic that if there's a solid win there'll be more of an opportunity to get some good things done?

I'm optimistic that in the areas of law reform and industrial relaitons we can do some more good things, we can build on the achievements of the first term and that the government will be encouraged if NSW, in a difficult election, sticks to a Labor Government.

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Issue 6 contents

Interview: Jeff Shaw - Keeping the Peace in NSW
We talk to the Carr Government's best minister about his plans and aspirations for a second term.

Unions: Labor's IR Promises
Read the full ALP Industrial Relations policy. Only on Workers Online!

History: A History of Struggle on the Wharves
As the first anniversary of the Reith-Corrigan assault on the waterfront approaches, we remember that it was only the latest in a long line of attacks on the union.

Review: Rats in the Ranks
This Australian political masterpiece about the battle for power in an inner-city council is well worth going back to.

Campaign Diary: It's Time For a Real Labor Government
A returned Carr Government must use its increased majority to promote a genuine Labor agenda rather than just clinging to power for another four years.

» '96 Revisited - Ditched Laws May Get Second Run

» Opposition IR - A Dog�s Breakfast

» Union Plan To Give Mobile Workers Security

» Mergers Wave To Hit Insurance Industry

» AAP Pushes To Create Virtual Reporters

» Wharfies Help Out Aboriginal Kids

» ACTU Asks Workers: How�s Life?

» Bracks Gets Pallas Envoy

» South Coast Labor Council Battle Heads for Court