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  Issue No 65 Official Organ of LaborNet 04 August 2000  

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Interview

Hobart Perspective

Interview with Peter Lewis

Having held senior positions in both wings of the labour movement, Martin Ferguson went to Hobart with more perspective than most. He shares a bit of it with Workers Online.

 
 

What was your evaluation of the Conference and what has come out of it?

I think the Conference was one at which we saw a real determination to try and best position the Labor Party to win the next election. It was a conference at which we saw a willingness by people to try and put aside some of their differences. There is a complete acceptance that it is a hell of a lot better in government and having a capacity to do things, than having a lot of fun tearing one another apart in opposition. There is a feeling that we can actually do something for the people we believe need assistance and really position Australia for the 21st Century from government.

A key plank is packaging up this idea of a "knowledge nation" into something that is going to connect with real working people. As a former ACTU president, do you think Labor are on the right track with it?

Whilst we will not have an Accord-type agreement with the union movement again, if you actually look at the type of issues we talked about there is a positive agenda for working people. They're the very issues we pursued during our last long period of government, in essence trying to work out how we improve the standard of living of Australians, not just relying on the wage packets but with proper attention to education and skills; improvements in the health care system; a more worker friendly workplace; and also seeking to develop a process which means all Australians share in the benefit of growth. There is also a focus on regional issues - not just rural and remote localities, but also suburbs of some of the cities which just don't have an infrastructure of support which guarantee the same standard of living as the other areas of the city.

If there was an area of conflict it occurred over the so-called "Fair Trade" debate. While the actual vote on the conference floor was along factional lines, there seemed to be a fair bit of movement within each of the two groupings as well. What was your perspective on that debate?

I think there is a realisation across the whole Party that the debate shouldn't be about free or fair trade, but more importantly how you share the benefits of economic growth, which is related to globalisation across all sections of society. That debate throughout the history of society has always been a complex, difficult debate. And it is a bigger problem for the current government - it is very clearly emerging that we have two parts of Australia now. Those who are going exceptionally well, for example in areas of Sydney, and those who are doing it exceptionally bad in other areas of Sydney such as fringe suburbs. So the debate about free trade, or fair trade is also part of a broader debate about the so-called good levels of economic growth.

Why are some going further ahead and others falling further behind? It comes back to where we as a Labor Party actually believe we can help people. We actually believe there is a case for government doing something to try and create opportunities, and to also push the benefits to all Australians.

How you achieve that has always been a debate within the Labor Party. I think historically some people in the labour movement only saw it being achieved through negotiations with the employers about a wage increase or alternatively a tax cut. Kim Beazley has now said we are going to actually take on a bigger debate, a more important debate, which is about the role of government and the provision of services, as against a very narrow focus by Howard and Costello, which is just on tax cuts.

But by the same token there is that fundamental difference around the free trade issue, which is, do you best protect the interest of Australian workers by raising some barriers against trading nations?

There is a fundamental difference about free trade or protectionism, and it is a very simple debate in the minds of some people. The heart of the debate is actually working out, in the knowledge that we are not going to go backwards, how you actually even the ledger for those who you believe are disadvantaged by the impact of free trade, which include people in particular industries and some suburbs.

I would also say that the pain that is being attributed to free trade in some of those regions and industries is probably more inter-related to the process of technological change. You take the issue of the automotive industry. We did lose some jobs through reducing trade barriers, but we also lost a lot of jobs through the introduction, for example at Toyota, of the most modern vehicle manufacturing technology in the world. Technological change is also going to occur. Our job is to actually harness technology to our best advantage, in the same way we have to harness changes on the trade front to our best advantages and needs.

But without a social tariff linked to international labour standards, without that sort of penalty, how do you ever give global standards any teeth?

Global standards are always going to be set by international organisations such as the ILO and the UN. Remember this: the trade union movement historically has never argued the same wages and conditions that apply to a vehicle worker in Australia should apply to the vehicle worker in Thailand. We have always argued that it is the core ILO standards that should apply in each country. It is then each country's responsibility on the basis of its level of economic growth and development, to then set appropriate wages and conditions.

One of our responsibilities is to actually promote an adherence to those standards, such as opposition to child and prison labour; support for collective bargaining; and the freedom to associate. I have never argued in my history, that the rate of pay for a vehicle worker in Australia should be the same rate of pay for a vehicle worker in Thailand.

I think it has also been commented that this debate is not a particularly new one and it was really the debate that the ACTU went through in the early days of the Hawke government...

I think back to the whole period of the Hawke government. Across a range of industries from textile, clothing and footwear to vehicle manufacturing and the Garnaut Report. This debate is not new, and it is also going to be a debate we have for many, many years to come. Our objective has got to be to avoid falling into the simplistic notions of those who associate themselves with the narrow-minded view of One Nation, and more importantly, challenge ourselves as a Party to putting in place a process of government which harnesses the benefits of free trade to assist all Australians.

The issue is how we extend that net and fit them up, such as through Knowledge Nation and skilling, to actually try and give them a new opportunity in life. Even if we didn't have free trade the days of being able to work in one industry, or with one employer all your life are gone. So what is the alternative mechanism of picking these people up and helping them? Unfortunately in the rhetoric about social tariffs and questions of protectionism, you don't often hear from those people what we ought to be doing in government to actually do more for people who are affected in society.

But what do you say to the blue collar workers who see their job disappearing? What do you say to them that can make them feel secure about the future?

The message to the worker - be it blue or white collar - who thinks that his or her job is disappearing - is that we are there to actually make sure that if you are required to have a change in employment, that there is a responsible government and employer to help you. And that is what is missing from the Howard Government at the moment.

Where are they talking about us competing in whatever industry we can on the basis of the best skilled workforce in the world? Where are they talking about a decent Industrial Relations Commission that can actually help you in your workplace? Where are they actually helping you with respect to the education and health of your children? Which are issues that you worry about when you start to question whether or not you are going to be with this employer next year and the year after.

It is all about the role of government, and that is what we are going to fight our next election on. Not a simplistic notion of cutting taxes and supporting free trade, which is the Howard Government approach. But a comprehensive approach to government which tries to build some security back into people's lives so that they can manage a move from one job or an industry to another job or industry.

One final question: You have been out of the union movement for almost five years now. I am just interested in your perspective of the new ACTU leadership and the direction it is going?

I am a big supporter Greg Combet. I see him as a talented young person who has a big contribution to make. I think he is still in the process of finding his feet, and the recent Congress was a success for him and the new Executive. They, I suppose, confront the same challenges today that we confronted in 1982 as a union movement, trying to work out: do we go from the opposition of some people who fear change, to people on the front foot who actually want to mould change in Australia to the best advantage of all working men and women.

That is the challenge for Greg, and that is the challenge for the union movement: not to be negative in opposition - and I don't think Greg as a person is. But to be able to harness the energy in the whole union movement, to put the union movement in a position that is proactive and broadens horizons. It's about the change from simple negotiations with the employers about how you improve a worker's standard of living, to driving a view about education and health, and access to childcare - and I might also say, on an international front - how you promote a better understanding and adherence to core labour standards to help workers in other countries.


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*   View entire issue - print all of the articles!

*   Issue 65 contents

In this issue
Features
*  Interview: Hobart Perspective
Having held senior positions in both wings of the labour movement, Martin Ferguson went to Hobart with more perspective than most. He shares a bit of it with Workers Online.
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*  Politics: Love-in In a Cold Climate
In our exclusive campaign diary we bring you the sights, sounds and smells of the ALP's Hobart conference.
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*  Unions: Passion Plays
Canadian union campaigner Sharon Costello outlines how British Columbia nurses are using the arts to activate their membership base.
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*  International: Spanish Telecom Builds Employee Portal
The prospect of on-line access for unions to company employees was outlined to Union Network International by the head of Spanish Telecommunications giant. Telefonica.
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*  History: Husky Girls and the Female Psyche
When women entered the workforce during World War Two their male supervisors were given these simple tips to get the most out of them.
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*  Satire: Communism Vindicated by Successful Collective Meeting
Tonight's meeting of the Marxism-Leninism Now Collective demonstrated the continuing relevance and ultimate success of communist principles, according to the Collective's Secretary, George Addison, 44.
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*  Review: Following the Money
A new book looks at the role the bosses have played in the changing industrial relations framework.
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News
»  Chaudhry, Burrow Discuss Strengthening Unions' Stand
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»  Shopping Centres' 'Pay to Work' Plan
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»  Labor's IR Platform: Winding Back Reith
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»  Redback clerks buck casual trend
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»  No Joy in Ministerial Mind Slip
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»  Parlt House Cleaners' Fight Gets Dirty
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»  Rural Safety Lapses' Massive Cost
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»  5000 Students Back the Hands that Feed Them
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»  Mobile Phones Health Warning
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»  Bank Staff Fight Fruitpicking Future
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»  No Science in CSIRO Sell-Down
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»  Hotel Workers Target Big Chains
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»  Wheels of Justice Slow as Reporters Walk
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»  Free Political Economy Classes for Activists
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»  APHEDA plans Asian and Middle Eastern tours
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Columns
»  The Soapbox
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»  Sport
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»  Trades Hall
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»  Tool Shed
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Letters to the editor
»  In defence of coffee
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»  Rail commuter warns pollies
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»  We want a bigger slice of pie
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»  Latham should watch the Footy Show
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»  Editor bagged
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