
Issue No 54		19 May 2000

LaborNET	Ask Neale	Tool of the Week

Interview

South of the Border

Interview with Peter Lewis

Victorian Trades Hall chief Leigh Hubbard on life under Bracks, militant unionism and why more people march in Melbourne.

Like everyone else the elevation of the Labor Government in Victoria at this time must have caught the unions a little bit unaware. How has life been in the first six months now of the Bracks Government?

Life has been very busy because having a Labor Government means consultation and it means involvement and that is a good thing. Although you spend a lot of time doing it and sometimes it seems for not much result.

The Bracks Government has already done some creative things. They had an economic summit - it's a bit of a hackneyed kind of thing but it was useful. It set a new tone about the business community and unions working together from a different perspective. The two by-elections we have had - one for the former Premier's seat of Burwood which Labor won, and a seat we have never won, never held in Benalla, which was the former Deputy Premier's seat - shows that they must be doing something right in terms of public perception.

For example, they have abolished contract arrangements in teaching, which up until now has been a major educational issue. We had no contract teachers in 1992. Now nearly 20 per cent of the whole teaching workforce in Victoria is on year-by-year contract. So they abolished that. We also have new workers compensation legislation that is now before Parliament. That's a massive improvement - returning common law rights to workers.

And we've got an industrial relations task force currently looking at a new industrial relations framework for non-federal award workers in Victoria. So that is a step forward. We have got rid of compulsory competitive tendering in local government. So that's been a great boon to the local government workers. It's taken the cut-throat nature of that out area. So I think a lot of good things. And the public perceives a lot of good things.

It's a thousand times better to have a Labor Government than not have one. But then again you can't have illusions about what they will do and how quickly they will do it. Unions who have had seven years of frustration had quite high expectations - only some of which have not been met. For example, the workers compensation legislation didn't go as far as we would have liked. Things like the State Budget where they had a $1.6 billion dollar surplus to play with and still at the end of the day left a $600 million surplus for the next financial year. We would have liked them to put more money back particularly into the current service delivery - and that was a disappointment. So, look, it is a mixed bag and it's never going to be perfect so we keep battling away.

I think the one lesson we learned was that it's always important to have - no matter what your political position at a given time - your policies written down in detail. Some of the things that we wanted we weren't able to point to - promises, documents, whatever - that the new government could be held to.

One of the first things that happened in NSW when the Labor Government came in was that there was a re-regulation of the labour market. I guess it is a bit different in Victoria, given that the federal system basically absorbed the State system under Kennett. What is the challenge before you to reverse that?

It's major. It comes in a number of ways. One: As you say, a lot of the power of the State Government in industrial relations was referred to the Commonwealth - so there is a process of getting that back.

Can you unscramble the eggs though?

Oh, you can. The Government can simply call to have the powers taken back. In Victoria of course we have a minority Labor Government in the Lower House and now, thankfully only one or two by-elections we are only down by - we've got half the number and only need to rely on one Independent. But in the Upper House the Liberals still hold an absolute majority, even without the National Party.

The other problem we have politically is that no matter even if the Government here had the political will to take back power and unscramble the egg, with pressure from Reith would the Upper House here actually allow the legislation through. So it's not just a matter of running a community campaign and getting acceptance of a comprehensive State industrial system with awards and so on. It's actually the politics of how you might get such a thing implemented.

On the one hand you have Reith saying, no, I don't want to implement comprehensive standards with these 700,000 or 800,000 thousand workers in Victoria. And yet on the other hand his mates in the Upper House here are saying, well we are not going to pass legislation - that's a real impasse.

Have you got as far as thinking what the substance of your IR package would be? Would it be modelled on the NSW laws?

Yes, in similar terms but I think our system, because there is not the same culture of State system, would also have its differences. NSW is a world of its own in terms of the history and penetration of State awards in the culture, of having it's own Commission and Industrial Relations Court. Whereas in Victoria we have always had a much higher penetration of federal awards. It's always been a much more outward looking economy in a sense, in terms of the labour structures. And we are not going to put in place something as detailed or complicated as NSW, but we do propose a propose a State Commission and a State Labour Court. But we wouldn't propose to re-introduce 250 State Awards, we would probably have major industry awards being over 17 or 18 industry sectors, plus some occupational awards. It will be a much simpler system and it will be a step-by-step approach, given that at the moment we have 800,000 people who are covered by simply an hourly rate of pay and few other conditions. That is all that they are entitled to.

So, it won't be as complex as NSW, although we are hoping to do some innovative things around the whole issue of independent contractors and unfair contracts, like NSW, or indeed in Queensland the provisions on being able to deem contractors or non-employees as employees. And we hope that the Government will take that up, but we've got a bit of a battle to face. It's not just a matter of convincing the ALP they should do it, it's a matter of how you get it through the Upper House.

What about some of the other substantive issues? One of the ones we have been running with up in NSW is notions of job security and particularly regulation of labour hire and independent contractors. Bob Carr has actually said he'd do this if there was similar movement in Queensland and Victoria. So he's proposing this idea that when you have got Labor States there should be some sort of joint standard where you are not having businesses undercutting each other for major employment centres in the States on the basis of who has got the slacker labour laws. Is that an area that you have looked at yet?

The ALP in their policy promised a review into job security. The industrial relations task force will certainly cover some of that territory, but Labor promised a review into job security. They have also promised legislation which is similar to legislation in Britain. And it is a promise that says legislation should be enacted to protect workers in contracting out situations from having their wages and conditions lowered. So it is set up effectively to implement the Federal Court decisions which we've seen recently, and that's a good thing.

We are six months into the Government. In the next six to twelve months we will see whether people live up to their promises. So, one of the things we will probably propose is to get together the three State Labor Governments with the unions and the Labor Councils in each State to put the test on them. Say, well alright, you are the three biggest economies in the country, everyone has a concern about the casualisation and job insecurity and growth of independent contractors - treating all workers as people who deserve standards, not just employees

How do we do that? And that's something I think we should get all Labor States to tackle. As you say, you are not going to convince one State to do it on their own. so I would be happy to talk to the Labor Councils in Queensland and NSW about how we might do that. Bring the Labor Ministers together and bring the Premiers together to talk about it, because to tell you the truth, and I think even the Labor movement backs away from this - but I think the one winning issue out there at the moment is this whole issue of job insecurity, casualisation, stress because of either long working hours or short working hours. And I reckon the ALP, certainly nationally, haven't capitalised on it.

That's partly I think because they are a bit scared of intervening in the market. But I think this issue of intervening in that way is as important as it was in the early 1900s, to set up conciliation and arbitration systems. We have got to have standards for workers outside the traditional structures; we are going to have more workers from home or we are going to have more independent contractors. Those people deserve some standards.

What is it like running the Victorian Trades Hall? It's got the reputation of being a hotbed of factionalism. I don't think they call them factions down here but fiefdoms. How do the dynamics work?

I actually think that Victoria has, for a long, long time been much less factioned than perhaps NSW. We had a situation in Victoria where for example, the Right controlled the Trades Hall until about 1987. They did it in a machine-like manner and in a fairly controlled way. When the Left gained control of the Trades Hall they only held the Secretary's position and one of the Organiser's positions, and then in 1991 they did a power sharing arrangement with the Right getting the Assistant Secretary's position and the Left with the Secretary's position. That in a sense has worked very well.

The other thing in Victoria is that there is not a large number of right-wing unions. There's the AWU, the SDA the TWU and the NUW - and the SDA is not an affiliate. So there is not a large divide with groups on either side. Eighty per cent the unions in Victoria are on the Left. But that's not to say there are no differences within the Left.

On the other hand in the ALP we had a problem here with Labor in Government, we had a position where the Party is controlled by the Right, and one or two unions in particular have a disproportionate say, and the vast bulk of unions, who are within the Trades Hall feel cut out of that process. So there is indeed a very strong divide between the Government and the unions whereas in NSW one gets the sense that there is a much closer affinity between the Government, and say, the Labor Council.

Are you in the ALP management structure? Are you an officer of the Party?

No. No. Unlike Peter Sams, who I think was both Party President and Secretary of the Labor Council, I have made it very clear that while we support the ALP and help them in terms of elections, I maintain a very strict separation. I don't get involved in ALP matters, in forums, or whatever because I have a view that as a union we ought to have a separate policy position and a separate identity to the ALP, even though the unions founded it and are the core constituency about it. So I just think it would be almost a conflict of interest if I, as Trades Hall Secretary, had a really strong role in the Party. That doesn't stop me having a close association with Ministers or whatever. I just don't get involved in the machinery of the ALP.

That sort of philosophy seemed to come through in the 38 hour week campaign. The message from a distance was: we are different and we've got our agenda.

I think that's true in Victoria. The Labor movement is not as homogenous as it once was, there are differences between white collar unions and blue collar unions and so on. But it is probably true in Victoria - and necessarily so - because Labor has been the party of Opposition - apart from the 10 years in the eighties and now with the Bracks Government. Since 1950 that's the only time in which Labor has been in Government. Trades Hall has been de facto Opposition and the union movement had to have its own policy issues. We have operated for our own survival. Whereas in NSW Labor has been in Government for 40 of the last 50 years. So it's a totally different dynamic that means the union movement here is much more independent of the ALP, much more jealous about a separate policy position, and probably much more likely to be critical of the ALP when it acts against what we regard as our interests.

What about the broader environment in Victoria? Where are the jobs being created and what's driving the economy down here at the moment?

That's a good question. Traditionally in Victoria have disproportionately more manufacturing than say NSW. That has declined over the last few years. We have lost a lot of jobs, particularly to Queensland. I think the growth is coming in the newer sections like IT, some of those services industries, while manufacturing is decling - although like the wine industry and value added industries becoming more important. I don't think tourism and hospitality will ever be what it is to Queensland and NSW, but the services by and large are the growth areas. And so, we are obviously conscious of that and aware unions like construction and manufacturing - while they are as important to the union movement as they ever were - they don't occupy the same place or the same numerical strength.

It's a challenge to come up with symbols that mean things to people in that environment, isn't it?

Absolutely. And that's a contradiction because our militant sections are still those in a few core areas - construction and manufacturing. And that's a good thing. No one would ever want to get rid of that. And they are the people who are able to muster solidarity and so on. Like the MUA.

But on the other hand some of the most important battles that have taken place around workplace change and work. Those services industries and white collar industries create a big challenge - how do we generate both unionism and solidarity and a view that they are just as important? I think that is the real test. If you look at it now, by and large the union movement has moved from blue collar, low wage - to now the average union person is somewhere in the 35 to 50 age, in the wage bracket $30,000 to $60,000, and is predominantly white collar. On the one hand the images people still get of unions are those blue collar militants. You don't knock that, but in fact the bulk of our membership or potential membership is somewhere else, and they have got a different attitude and different culture. So that is a real contradiction for us.

My final question is about your rallies: what is your secret to getting so many people to turn up?

I think (a) it is because we keep doing it. Like anything, if you don't have a culture of doing something, you don't get the momentum. Look, it may seem that we only have a one track strategy, and that is rallies. It's not that. It is just that I think we do the other things - the lobbying and the kind of stuff on the Internet - letters on the Internet for information of members, but integral to every campaign has been that mass mobilisation. It's just a different culture in Victoria. I don't know why. Even if you looked around things like the anti-conscription movement or moratoriums, the anti-apartheid stuff, the Victorian stuff is always much bigger or much different. It is partly to do with the different status of the Left parties here. A different tradition. A lot more politics occurred outside the traditional Labor Council/ALP stuff, and I just think the unions here have just had this history of every year - every six months we will have a rally around something.

1992 was a watershed, when we had 150,000 marching - but we would be very disappointed now on a major issue if we didn't get 30,000 or 40,000 people turning up. That would be small. In the last couple of years - the Second Wave last year - or in '98 in May we had a rally over the maritime dispute - each of those had something between 80,000 and 100,000.

I think what we have got also in the manufacturing area there has been much more of a tradition of stopping work. You think back to the shorter hours campaigns of the late '70s - Laurie Carmichael and others - were led basically from Victoria. There is a tradition of the whole industry stopping one day a month to prove to the employers that they wanted shorter hours. And so you have got workers who still have a memory of doing that kind of stuff. So when the Trades Hall or their union says: "Stop work - go to this" there is at least a tradition of doing that. I just think in some other States there is no tradition there. I don't know, I can't explain it.

Even other States like South Australia have a pretty good tradition. Western Australia for their size have a good tradition. Queensland and NSW don't tend to have that. I don't think it is something because we are better or not, it's just been a different style of approach.

You get more people at the footy too.

Well that's right. We are much more tribal perhaps, where as NSW is much more diffuse. It is an interesting point. I think the difference in politics between NSW and Victoria goes back a long way - and you could argue this for hours - but NSW had a Rum Corps and Victoria didn't. NSW had convicts and Victoria didn't. Victoria had a Split and NSW didn't.

All of those things are part of the matrix of things that make the difference, to both how the union movement is structured and how it responds to critical issues. I mean in some ways we down here actually envy NSW because of that kind of meshing of political and industrial Labor. But on the other hand, I think we guard very jealously that independence and ability to mobilise and do those things, so it is a matter of finding the balance.

View entire issue - print all of the articles!

Issue 54 contents

Interview: South of the Border
Victorian Trades Hall chief Leigh Hubbard on life under Bracks, militant unionism and why more people march in Melbourne.

Politics: Jeff Shaw's Second Wave
The full text of the NSW Industrial Relations Minister's speech to Labor Council announcing the Carr Government's IR reform agenda.

Unions: Reith's Laws: Just Say NO
The ACTU has called on Labor and the Democrats to reject Workplace Relations Minister Peter Reith's anti-industry bargaining Workplace Relations 2000 Bill out right.

History: A Breed Of Their Own
Labour historian Greg Patmore explains what makes his fraternity tick - and why they're still going strong and making history.

International: Sony's Asian Showdown
The Japanese electronic giant Sony is threatening to shutdown production facilities in Indonesia - where a prolonged strike has cost it US$200milliom - and move to next door Malaysia where electronic workers are banned from forming a union.

Human Rights: Good Guys, Bad Guys
Everywhere we look -in our newspapers, on the television, in reports by business leaders, academics and politicians - advocacy of human rights seems to be on a collision course with governmental and business interests.

Review: New Workers, New Challenges
A new wave of thought is arguing that working life is changing - but this doesn't necessarily deal unions out the action.

Satire: Rain Man Withdraws Endorsement of Qantas
After the third major safety incident in the space of a year, Qantas has lost the confidence of the most famous public supporter of its once unblemished safety record, the autistic star of Rain Man, Raymond.

» Carr Moves on Casuals

» Democrats Wavering on Reith Bill

» Exit Visas for Child Care Workers

» GST Pay Claims to Target Allowances

» Tide Turns On Competitive Tendering

» Joy Takes Message To The World

» Mines Out as Rio Tinto Torps Talks

» Political Economy for Activists, 2000

» Unions March for Reconciliation

» STOP PRESS: AK-47s used in coup against union-aligned Fiji Labour Government