
Issue No 44		03 March 2000

Interview

The Big Fella

Interview with Peter Lewis

Opposition Leader Kim Beazley speaks about Labor's evolving relationship with the trade union movement in the post-Accord era.

What's your evaluation of the state of the Australian trade union movement at the moment?

I think that the state of the Australian trade union movement has psychologically improved dramatically over the last few years. They have responded well to threats.

There is a greater sense of solidarity amongst people who are union leaders than I have seen for some considerable time, and a greater appreciation of the real dangers to them than I've seen for some considerable time. And I attribute that to Peter Reith. He has been a magnificently solidifying character.

Having said that of course, when you look at the directions the workforce is developing in, based on the character of the economy we have, clearly there are requirements on modern trade unionists that have not been there for their sisters and brothers before. We have a workforce now that is extraordinarily difficult to unionise - it's atomised - but it probably needs the union movement more than any other groups of workers ever have. Basically because of that atomisation.

The essential power equation between management and employee has not changed. The essential weakness of the employee on their own is there as ever it was, unless they happen to be exceptionally highly skilled. And the only solution for them is to find a collective arrangement of some description. The unions, it seems to me, are alert to this, and they're developing the techniques to deal with it - but they're not there.

What about their relationship with the ALP? Would you say that you're as close to the new Secretary, Greg Combet, as say, Kelty was to Hawke and then Keating?

Well, I'd certainly want to be. I think he's terrific. He earned his spurs during the MUA dispute. He's a bloke of great intelligence and foresight and I think that when I form a government I'll be listening a great deal to what he has to say.

Have you met with him yet?

Oh yes. We've had numerous conversations.

The feeling from some unions is they don't want another Accord. How do you manage the relationship without a formal agreement like that?

Yes, I guess it takes two to tango, and if one side says they don't want an Accord, that's the end of the matter really, isn't it.

Would Labor want an Accord if the unions were willing to dance?

I want a close relationship. I think that when you are managing an economy like Australia's, not to have a dialogue and conversation with the workforce is foolhardy and we have a foolhardy government.

Take a look at what is happening now with the GST. The GST is coming in at a time when workers have finally worked out Reith's Industrial Relations Act and have worked out how to organise themselves around it. So they have worked out how to do that in a growth economy with an inflationary pressure coming on. This government hates the idea of talking to the union movement. But the fact that it cannot talk to the union movement at the moment is a matter of what should be concern for all Australians.

What would replace the Accord under a Labor Government?

A dialogue. A good structured dialogue, and a sharing of information about the direction of the economy - a sharing of information about the issues of the day. You see, I think we need a new reform agenda. The new reform agenda is very much workforce oriented. It goes to skills in particular. It goes to innovation in business. It goes to new businesses and product that they innovation, research and development. But above all it goes to training, education and retraining through life. The best way to deliver that is if there is somebody out there with an understanding and a collective - a broad-based organisation. It always was, when we were operating on old 1980s reform agendas. It's absolutely critical in a new agenda.

So I regard the relationship with the union movement as a plus. An opportunity. Now I know that there are many in the union movement suspicious of being incorporated by government. You just live with it.

One of the difficulties though is that with the fragmenting in the workplace you've got your blue collar workers and your white collar workforce, often with competing agendas. How difficult for Labor, as the party of the working people to define exactly who they are standing for now?

They have competing agendas, but they also have some fundamental points of agreement. Firstly, agreement on collective bargaining. That's as important to a white collar worker as it is to a blue collar worker - and harder to organise for a white collar worker. And harder to organise in new industries and the new jobs. But nevertheless, the need is there so there is agreement on that. There may be different perspectives on awards and there may be different perspectives on skills and all these sorts of things - but that can be mediated. That can be mediated and I'm not convinced that the differences are so terminal as to be incapable of resolution.

Do you think that Labor leaders have a responsibility to sell the benefits of Globalisation, because there's been a push back ....

All the inevitability. I mean, you can't walk away from Globalisation. It happens to you anyhow. It's gone beyond being an objective to being fact. So you deal with fact. What I've never accepted is that you don't have some control over the terms and conditions by which you participate in a global economy and that there is not a role for government in picking up those who are damaged by developments within the global economy. I think these things are central. I think this is modern social democracy, and I don't actually detect in reality all that much different point of view in the union officials that I meet.

You have been out and about in the last week or so. What do you think the average voter in suburbia thinks of the Labor Party at the moment?

Look, I think that in politics you have always got to sell your wares. You have always got to convince people that you have a sense of direction. I think the people out there know very much what we are against. We are against the Goods and Services Tax. We are against the dismantling of the industrial systems. To nobble umpires and make it harder to collectively bargain. We are against the insecurity this government has induced in the lives of ordinary Australians.

We are for a new agenda of reform. A new agenda based on skills and innovation. I don't know if they've got that point.

How do you sell that, because at a time when politicians aren't trusted it's much harder to sell reform.

First thing we've got to establish is that it's important. Here I see the union movement playing a crucial role. While unionists tend to live on the day to day, and they've an awful lot of problems that they've got to manage, they do understand that in the long term that is correct, and they are very adept at getting a point of view across to a large number of ordinary Australians in a way in which politicians find difficult. So I see the union movement as very important in selling this reform agenda.

Even when it's against the immediate interests of their members?

It's very rarely going to be against their interests.

What about the textile workers?

But the point about it is this. We have just put out the Workplace 2010 Study. The Workplace 2010 Study is not policy, it's analysis. It's the reality with which we have to deal. It's not that we want to collapse these industries and encourage these others. This is occurring, and in many ways is irresistible. Our response is a different matter to Workforce 2010. What we say of course, is that there are things that can be done with industries that are under threat.

A starting point would be to start for example, to get in place things like skills profiling so that we can get a clear cut impression of where weaknesses are in the skills of individuals, and individuals within a particular industry both in terms of being able to enhance the productivity of that industry, if it is an industry under threat, or in terms of relocation if the degree of global competition for a particular outfit has got to the point where it cannot actually survive.

We have got to give people a chance of getting themselves into the workforce. Why should Australia be unique in this regard?. we have the worst participation rate in the workforce of men over the age of 50. I mean, we shouldn't be like that. It's a skills issue. Why should the Americans be better. Why should the British be better? Why should the Germans be better? there isn't any reason. They are all going through the same process that we are going through. It's because of lazy government, and an inadequate concept of reform, because we are arguing about French 1960s taxes and not arguing about things that really matter in this century.

What about young people? A lot of research suggests that they have turned, if not towards the Liberals against Labor, or they are just not interested in politics. What specifically do you guys have to offer for a young people?

This is one of the problems that we have with the contemporary state of the labour movement - broadly defined, not just the Labor Party? Young people were always apathetic. This is not a new phenomenon. If they weren't apathetic, they were all enormously focussed on themselves and their lifestyles. That's called self-defence.

Young people are starting up in life, full of queries, questions, hopes, ambitions. Concerned to get a reasonable job. Concerned to get a training. It's enormously self regarding. So young people have always been out of the process, because that particular element of being a young person is historical as well as contemporary.

The difference is this. Forty or 50 years ago, as they walked out to make those decisions, they made it within the framework of the union. They made it within the framework of a broad based industry which they lived close to. They made it within the framework of the Church, or a social organisation that they were invariably a member of. Young people were collectivised. Young people are no longer collectivised. That's the difference.

There's anecdotal evidence at least that the notion of individual contracts is attractive ton young people. In a way the pushing job security and the traditional industrial structures can be a turnoff for some young people.

I have had to live most of my life with great joy in Western Australia. The West Australian industrial relations system is the roughest on organised labour of any, and it has succeeded. You can go around and talk to industrial leaders in Western Australia and they always tell you, you know. They say, oh are you doing all right? Yeah we're doing all right, you're doing all right. Statistically they're doing awfully. I mean, they're shell shocked. They have taken a fearful pummelling. But you know, anecdotally, I go around my electorate and find repeated stories from parents about the weights being put on their kids and them being unable to do anything about it.

If they believe that an individual contract is empowering, it's only because they've been propagandised or they are frightened. Because it is not. It absolutely isn't! and young people are being exploited by this process, but where are the points of contact to point that out to them?

There were plenty years ago, there aren't now. I think things like what you're doing is probably the best means of getting in touch with them.

Finally, on the Net. Do you use it much?

My office of course uses it repeatedly and massively, but I don't really use on my own. But look, this is something that I am going to have to get more adept at using than I am at the moment, basically because it's the best way of getting across Labor Party propaganda and our capacity to do it in the normal media now is non-existent.

And you favourite site?

I actually regularly access Slate. I think it's the best magazine on American politics, and I do detect in your operation here that you have some features in common with it.

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  Issue 44 contents

Interview: The Big Fella
Opposition Leader Kim Beazley speaks about Laborï¿½s evolving relationship with the trade union movement in the post-Accord era.

Unions: An Interactive Resource
The priority for unions in the 21st century is organising and growth. Greg Combetï¿½s unions @work report identified the direction unions should be moving.

Media: Public Hearings
As the big media players look increasingly tarnished, the broadcasting minnows like FBi are seeking their share of the airwaves.

History: Labour History Under Siege
In good labour tradition, the history section of Workers Online begins the year with a call to arms.

Olympics: Games Greed Boosts Homeless Numbers
'Homeless in Sydney' is shaping up to be the theme of the Olympics with many property owners evicting tenants and pushing up rents.

Women: No Time To Be Casual
International Womenï¿½s Day is a day to take action. As a shop steward or union delegate why not use IWD as an opportunity to encourage the women in your workplace to join the union?

International: Serbian And Kosovo Unions Meet
The Italian metalworkers has hosted meetings on how to build a different future for the workers in the Balkans.

Labour Review: What's New
Read the latest issue of Labour Review our resource for students, activists and officials.

Review: Rock and a Hard Place
A hippie festival? Alternative? No way...the music festival know as the Big Day Out (BDO) is fast becoming a mainstream youth cultural event, a snapshot of the broader society that unions are struggling to engage.

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» Auditor General Moves on TAFE

» Yahoo! Under Fire for Union Censorship

» Unrest Bubbles Over Coke Sackings

» Jennie To Sign Off Online

» Basic Goods Sought for East Timorese

» Western Sydney Added to Campus Tour

» Pay Equity Update

» STOP PRESS: Mac Attack Tuesday